TopTriangle.com - secret of an internet marketing expert's success
By Tim Roberts in Internet Marketing on Tuesday, September 29, 2009 @ 10:52
I've just been catching up with my reading of Crains and came across an interesting article entitled "Feed magnate saves skip broker from trash" This article deals with the news coming from the the Administrators of TopTriangle.com, the online skip hire business which was run by Mark Attwood, self proclaimed internet marketing expert. The article says that the insolvency practitioners SFP are investigating allegations that
in addition to factors associated with the market downturn, internal fraud may also have contributed to the collapse of the business.
The London-based
insolvency firm SFP said its forensic team had identified various areas
of concern in relation to the company's trading activities before it
folded in March with debts of almost £1m.
Toptriangle has now been bought out of administration by a company called Perfect Associates in which Mark Attwood holds shares but isn't a director. In the past Mark Attwood has used Toptriangle as an example of how his abilities as an internet marketing expert has driven the business to success. The Crains article seems to suggest that Toptriangle might not have been as successful as Mark Attwood had proclaimed through his blogs and public speaking.
According to an estimated statement of
affairs, the deficiency to unsecured creditors is in the region of £938,816,
with many skip hire companies owned money. SFP said unsecured creditors
were unlikely to see any dividend.
Vince Samios wrote:
Sep 30, 2009 - 11:52Hi Tim,
You've done a really nice job of cherry picking the facts to convey your own personal agenda...
I'm not sure I understand why the #@!% stirring?
Trying to discredit Mark will only leave you looking bitter and stupid in the long run.
Cheers,
Vince
Tim wrote:
Oct 01, 2009 - 09:25Hi Vince,
Thanks very much for your comment, here at I-COM we believe that everyone has a right to be heard so we've posted it - although I have removed the uneccessary swearing.
We use the blog to distribute news on what's happening in the internet marketing space and we felt this piece of news was worth a mention particularly since Mark has been so vociferous about the success of his methods
It's commendable that you stand up for your friend, but it would be great if Mark himself were to use this blog as a platform to explain what's gone on.
Vince Samios wrote:
Oct 01, 2009 - 16:59Short of this "news" being 6 months old...
" #@!% Stirring" is a colloquial term which accurately describes repeated efforts by yourself to discredit Mark. Its like you have a personal vendetta or fierce jealousy...
The internet marketing success of a business does not make that business immune from things such as fraud, market downturns, with-held funds and unreasonable retractions of invoice financing.
Have you ever spoken to Mark? Been to see him speak etc? Do you have any measure of his expertise? Do you know the specifics to make your comments worth noting? The only measure of internet marketing expertise is the ability to generate leads - be that related to PPC, SEO, CRO etc. £11 million in three years is one shed load of leads.
Really, its a tad egotistical of you to suggest your blog is the appropriate platform for Mark to humor your apparent prejudices... I'm only here to put you in your place, and then I'm off to do much more productive things.
At the end of the day Tim, posts such as this burn important bridges for yourself and your associates.
Tim wrote:
Oct 01, 2009 - 21:26Hi Vince,
Just to deal with your points:
Alex wrote:
Oct 03, 2009 - 10:40I think we all know number 2 isn't true, you had an article on your blog that you pulled down mentioning Mark.
As far as number 5 is concerned Vince mentioned CRO.
I think you're being a bit disingenuous.
Tim wrote:
Oct 05, 2009 - 09:45Hi Alex,
Thanks for your comment, in response to your points:
Vince Samios wrote:
Oct 07, 2009 - 01:541. You pretty clearly referenced a recent post by Mark, and there were pretty clear instructions on how that post was to be found - you didn't mention Mark by name but you didn't really need to.
2. nit picking, it goes without saying that lead quality is very important, which is why I mentioned CRO but I didn't expect I had to spell it all out for you. Again, you've put a nice little self serving spin on things.
Tim wrote:
Oct 07, 2009 - 09:13Vince Samios wrote:
Oct 07, 2009 - 11:24Tim, I've got a copy of the article. You made very specific reference to an article posted by Mark - It didn't take a genius to make the connection.
You really have a knack for cherry picking - you did so in the original post, and you've done so in regards to lead generation.
When I said "the only measure of internet marketing expertise is the ability to generate leads" it GOES WITHOUT SAYING that leads need to be relevant and able to be converted to sales. It goes without saying!
Your clients aren't daft enough not to see through this drivel.
Tim wrote:
Oct 07, 2009 - 12:13Vince,
The removed post does not specifically mention Mark Attwood's blog, it did talk about an internet marketing expert who had admitted publically he didn't understand why he was getting great results. There was no reference to a blog or any type of communication.
On the issue of cherry picking, I hate to be accused of limiting peoples access to the base material, so to ensure this can't be levelled at me, what follows is a complete transcript of the Crains article upon which the orignial post was based.
"Feed magnate saves skip broker from trash"
By James Chapelard
Administrators of TopTriangle.com, the online hire business founded by former RAF pilot Mark Attwood, are investigating allegations that internal fraud may have led to its collapse.
London-based insolvency firm SFP said its forensic team had identified various areas of concern in relation to the company's trading activities before it folded in March with debts of almost £1m.
Administrators said directors of the Cheadle Hulme-based company had alerted them to the fraud.
TopTriangle.com is still trading, having been bought back by Attwood after a pre-pack administration.
It provides skip hire under the TopSkips.com brand and a range of other hire services for containers, toilet, generators and other equipment.
The company is an internet marketing business acting as broker between clients and hire companies.
SFP said the reason for its collapse remained unclear but the general downturn in the construction industry as well as the alleged fraud were possible factors.
In March it underwent a pre-pack administration and was bought back by Attwood for £85,000 using a new vehicle Perfect Associates Ltd.
He holds ordinary shares in PAL but all its convertible preference shares have been sold to David Lloyd, a Shropshire businessman who made his fortune from animal feed. Lloyd also has interests in insurance, car and skip hire and property and is worth £57m, according to the Sunday Times Rich List.
Lloyd confirmed he had invested a six figure sum in TopTriangle.com.
He told Crain's: “It's speculative. If you buy stuff off pre-pack you hold your hand on your heart. The company has internet skills that I do not have which I could apply to my other businesses. I am a low profile investor who may take control later.”
Attwood, who ran TopSkips Ltd with his wife Catherine, the finance director, and marketing director Kenny Goodman, said the company made a £1.1m pre-tax profit on turnover of £10m in the year to June 2008.
He told Crain's that the company had been the victim of fraud and theft amounting to £200,000 which was compound by the withdrawal of credit facilities from RBS Invoice Finance.
Attwood, one of the Crain's Manchester Business 40 Under 40 for 2008, said: "My wife and I ploughed all of our family money into TopTriangle Ltd to keep it afloat, but it was simply not enough." In order to salvage jobs and all our hard work over the last six years, we decided to enter a pre-pack administration because the sudden withdrawal of credit facilities left us with an untenable cash-flow position." The alternative was to let the company completely disappear. "We then secured a substantial six-figure investment within six weeks to give the new company a secure financial footing, so Topskips and all the secured brands are now trading in a subsidiary of a well capitalised group of companies owned by our majority shareholder, with many jobs intact and secure."
Attwood said neither he, his wife or Goodman were directors in the new business although he continued to provide internet marketing services.
He added: "We have all suffered greatly through this ordeal, having received death threats over the past few months. These threats are currently under investigation by the CID, so I cannot comment any further on these at this time."
According to an estimated statement of affairs the deficiency to unsecured creditors is like to be £938,816, with many skip hire companies owned money. SFP said unsecured creditors were unlikely to see any dividend.
Source: Crains Manchester
craigk wrote:
Nov 08, 2009 - 16:55glad I seen this post, was researching internet marketing courses!
After spending countless hours researching top affiliates and internet marketing gurus, I have come to the conclusion that most have made their money off the back of a boom!
Now that the boom is over, a lot them arent doing so well!
Do you know of any successful internet marketing people who have made their fortune in say, the last 18 months???? This only applies to a person who had no previous experience and started around 18 months ago.
I am on a forum called affiliates4u, and there are a few who have only started in the last 18 months, who are making say £400 to £500 a month, but all of the others who claim to be experts, started years ago and registered the best domain names!
I'm a tad undecided about all of this because I was once in to property and I know many estate agency owners are are struggling.
They have been in the business for years and they know all of the tricks of the trade, and sure they all got rich during the boom (each and every one of them), but there is one thing for sure now, NOT ONE OF THEM CAN PULL A RABBIT OUT THE HAT, to get things going again, this is despite all of their expertise and experience.
Craig
Tim Roberts wrote:
Nov 10, 2009 - 13:07Hi Craig
Thanks for your post and question:
"Do you know of any successful internet marketing people who have made their fortune in say, the last 18 months???? This only applies to a person who had no previous experience and started around 18 months ago."
I'm afraid the answer is I do not know of anyone.
I have read plenty of claims of individuals making £000's a day in selling their product, service or idea but unfortunately I've never been able to substantiate the claims. We've all seen people promoting themselves either through spam email, paid for search and/or direct mail. After looking into the offering, company or individual it's all salesmanship at best!
In my opinion I think it is impossible for an individual to go from knowing nothing to be able to create, implement and market online to the levels claimed! Sorry if this bursts the bubble, but I think a realisitic expectation is required.
In terms of resources, courses that could help you have a look at these: www.econsultancy.com or www.marketingtips.com.
Tim Roberts wrote:
Jan 16, 2010 - 16:56I've just spotted this related post on another blog that clarifies how a young entrepeneur got sucked in, lost money and righly feels let down by Mr Attwood who he considered to be a friend. The interesting thing is that he was one of Mr Attwood's biggest defenders and made a number of comments in his defence on this blog, he now feels that those comments were misplaced!
Vince, congratulations on getting married, move on and focus on the future. Don't let the past get in the way of what I'm sure will be a bright future.
Best wishes
Tim
Little Mark wrote:
May 14, 2010 - 15:54The Vince Spamios vs. Mark Attwood debauchee is just smokescreen to sinister plots. Mark and Vince are still very much in bed together. I for one saw the two sniffing glue in Sainsbury's car park, Altrincham last night.
wildelycreative wrote:
May 22, 2010 - 13:33I don't dispute that Mark Attwood knows a bit about SEO.
When the company went into voluntary liquidation they had known for more than 6 months about the fraud - so I was told when chasing payment for invoices.
Someone in the company allegedly stole a company chequebook and used it to buy a new scooter among other things.
I was never paid for 12 articles that were published in Mark's magazine and am still owed over £2000 for this work.
Mark and Kenny Goodman may not be Directors in the new company but they are pulling all the strings. A simple way to get out of legalities and payments.
If he's not an SEO scam man - why do all his websites look spammy?
J wrote:
Jun 23, 2010 - 16:36Mark Attwood is no SEO, he has very patchy knowledge.
If he were a good SEO he would not be so desparate to peddle his "secrets" for £500 on a membership site, or try to empty the pockets of small business owners at his seminars.
All testimonials for his events come from small business owners running "Mom and Pop" sites, with no knowledge of the subject, no way to ascertain whether Mark has actually given them anything of value.
Sure he talks a good game at these events, but his sites tell a different story. I have never seen an SEO complement him on his work.
His SEO efforts are riddled with the most basic mistakes.
In a nutshell, he spammed his skip hire site up the rankings using crash and burn techniques and then figured he could make a few quid selling the secrets of bum marketing to others.
J wrote:
Jun 23, 2010 - 16:41Forgot to add, here is an example of some "SEO" work done by Mark Attwood and Vince:
http://leadgenerationexperts.co.uk/
The last quote is a particular favorite.
Pity the suckers who give these guys their hard earned cash.
SEO Training wrote:
Jul 07, 2010 - 12:30hanks for taking the time to discuss this, I feel strongly about it and love reading more on this topic. If possible, as you gain knowledge, would you mind updating your blog with more information in<a href="http://kpib.co.uk">SEO</a>? It is extremely useful for me.
Internet Marketing wrote:
Jul 07, 2010 - 13:11Thanks for giving more details about marketing. Its very useful for me to know everything about marketing . I will buy this book later on.
Vince Samios wrote:
Jul 28, 2010 - 12:06It's been a long time since I've visited this post and I feel it prudent to apologize to Tim and the I-Com team because, fact, I was wrong to defend Mark Attwood. You can read my point of view of my relationship with him in this article I posted about <a href="http://vincesamios.com/internetmarketing/mark-attwood">Mark Attwood</a>
Suffice to say I haven't been sniffing any glue with mark in any car parks, let alone sainsburys, and I'm not associated with mark in any way shape or form any longer.
Stay tuned for the next installment of this story - its a juicy one.